This might get me in trouble with Millennials or even Gen-Z, but I preach pretty often on this blog, like Moses on Mount Sinai with lightning shooting from his fingertips, that I write about what I see and hear, not what is politically correct.
And the following is what I have observed.
We all know that famous scene in the movie Good Will Hunting, in which Sean (Robin Williams) is telling Will (Matt Damon) that intellect is not a substitute for life experience:
“So if I asked you about art, you’d probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life’s work, political aspirations, him and the pope, sexual orientations, the whole works, right? But I’ll bet you can’t tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You’ve never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling; seen that. If I ask you about women, you’d probably give me a syllabus about your personal favorites. You may have even been laid a few times. But you can’t tell me what it feels like to wake up next to a woman and feel truly happy. You’re a tough kid. And I’d ask you about war, you’d probably throw Shakespeare at me, right, “once more unto the breach dear friends.” But you’ve never been near one. You’ve never held your best friend’s head in your lap, watch him gasp his last breath looking to you for help. I’d ask you about love, you’d probably quote me a sonnet. But you’ve never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes, feeling like God put an angel on earth just for you. Who could rescue you from the depths of hell. And you wouldn’t know what it’s like to be her angel, to have that love for her, be there forever, through anything, through cancer. And you wouldn’t know about sleeping sitting up in the hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes, that the terms “visiting hours” don’t apply to you. You don’t know about real loss, ’cause it only occurs when you’ve loved something more than you love yourself.”
A great quote (yes, very long here, I probably should have shortened it, but I like it) and a great scene.
But when you apply this quote more broadly to life, I think you can rephrase that last line into, you don’t know what you really want, ‘cause it only occurs when you’ve lived the possibilities yourself.
It’s easy to see the point being made here. Young people can have all the knowledge in the world, but if they lack the experience, then they lack the full understanding and comprehension of a moment, situation or outlook on life.
And I also want to be clear, this is by no fault of their own. There is no way to fully perceive or interpret something, if you haven’t lived it. And I was the exact same way when I was younger.
Reflecting on this, brings me to what I consider the difference between layers and depth, which I will propose is the same as experience versus time.
For example, when someone has experienced a traumatic event, this creates deeper layers of emotion within them. They have a greater foundation of knowledge, experience and learning to draw upon when making decisions. Plus, when talking with them, you usually get a sense of this. You can see in the way that they carry themselves, in how they observe, in how they ask questions, that they possess a profound reserve, sophistication and grounding hidden underneath the surface.
However, to fully understand the layers built within you, you need the time to process what has happened. My point being, you need both experience with time – layers with depth – before full comprehension is reached. Experience without the time to reflect, process and understand, is incomplete. Because layers and depth go hand in hand, they feed and build off one another.
This is what reaching FIRE at a young age reminds me of, developing layers and having an experience without the necessary depth/time to understand it. You’ve made it. But what have you made it to? And usually, the most common answer I see is that their actions are sound, the goal accomplished, but the meaning, the depth, the spirituality, the equanimity hasn’t been vetted yet.
So, what follows is what you would expect. Deep questioning and searching… searching for what was needed all along… the underlying purpose of what existence means to you.
And there is nothing wrong with achieving FIRE early. In fact, I would argue the opposite, it is an amazing feat that I wish I would have done. But what I am seeing is that young people (or even older as well) reach the mark, and then tend to be lost, simply because of my points above. It’s easy to set these goals and then achieve them. However, what you do once you hit the mark is what really counts. And now you are forced to face the question of how well you know how to live life, how well you really know yourself.
Which I would say, can be a very scary question and catch people off guard if they are not prepared for it. Because there’s no more hiding behind achievement anymore. There’s no more professional life for an identity to latch onto. You’ve developed some layers, but you haven’t lived the time to understand them yet.
Humans’ favorite thing to do, is act certain in a very uncertain world. And that’s what a lot of FIRE mistakenly preaches.
However, the only thing I can guarantee you is change. Every single breath births a new variation. You will be an entirely different person at 40 then you were at 30, at 50 then you were at 40, and on, and on, and on…
Hence, this is why reaching FIRE at 30, or during your late twenties, reminds me of the similarities to achieve a college degree. People in your life have told you to do this, even though you don’t entirely understand what it means. And just because you have a degree, doesn’t mean you know how to work, which mirrors the same conundrum as just because you FIRE at 30, doesn’t mean you know how to live.
These common assumptions parallel each other. You are told what to do, then follow the formula to achieve it. Yet once achieved, you aren’t sure what to do. FIRE isn’t some mysterious alternative route to life, it’s just another path, like millions of other possibilities.
I think this Alan Watts video is a good example that can further emphasize my point, The Dream of Life. You don’t need to prove it or disprove it, simply play with the possibility.
Getting back to the quote I began with; I see this same thing all the time in FIRE blogs – people writing about concepts that they haven’t lived. Just like the character Will in the movie, they are postulating and speculating about things they might not fully understand (once again, yours truly included here), and claiming to be an expert (not yours truly).
The irony is not lost on me.
And where I think this becomes a problem down the road, is that this casting of hope for the future, like a fisherman with his net, can ignore the potholes in the present. It’s a big commitment to put words to paper about something that you haven’t lived and act like an expert at.
I see this term thrown around all the time – “personal finance expert.”
What the fuck does that mean? You balanced a checkbook once in your life? You signed up for personal capital or Mint and know how to push affiliate links? You started a blog? Maybe even self-published an eBook or online course qualifies you?
I have no fucking clue.
Which leads me to my next point, that is not a popular opinion as well… haha, see any re-occurring themes here? But I’m going to say it anyway.
What really gets people in trouble is that basically, they suck at life. Flat out, a lot of people just are not good at living life, facing its daily intricacies and challenges in an open and honest way.
And I know, that is one big fucking statement, judgment and pronouncement to make. Who am I to say that? A fucking recovering alcoholic/drug addict? But that’s my point. Life is like a poker game, there will be a ton of wins and losses along the way. It’s how you face and appreciate them that matters.
Prepare for this, with eyes wide open, embrace the unknown, and now you’re starting to lay a foundation worth living… worth defending.
Because it’s important to acknowledge, that daily living is not easy. It is stressful and uncertainty lurks around every corner, which most people either ignore or act like it doesn’t exist. You’re doing yourself a disservice if you ignore it. It takes time, skill and effort to learn how to live a happy and successful life to your own standards.
And the big snafu, comes because people naively assume and think they are good at it. The people surrounding them are feeding this delusion like throwing gasoline on fire – look what you have accomplished, look what wealth you have accumulated, look at all these noble causes you are pursuing, look at all of US that you have surrounded yourself with, how can you go wrong?
Yet all that matters is what is happening inside… inside that ticking timebomb of a mind you have.
Because pursuing goals, chasing after milestones, can be misleading. Have you lived the experiences to know these are things that will make you happy? Do you have the skillset at life to stay content once you have achieved something? It’s easy to say you’re going to do something and then do it, but is it you who really wants it, or are you reading a bunch of books and blogs telling you this is what you should want… what you should do?
And there’s a big difference.
I’ll end this diatribe with another quote from Good Will Hunting:
“Sometimes I wish I had never met you, because then I could go to sleep at night not knowing there was someone like you out there.”
FI is real. Once you’re woke, once you have become enlightened, there’s no going back.
But be careful.
Don’t pursue it to the ends of the Earth like an obsession because your echo chamber is telling you this is what you must do. Live the possibilities as they unfold and choose willingly and conscientiously the path that is right for you.
I think the bottom line is that if you’re not happy now, then you won’t be happy then.
What got you here, is not what will get you there… and the best teacher, is experience.
-Q-FI
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I’ll be honest, I’m not really sure what I think about this one myself. Hahahaha. But it was an interesting road to meander down. Feel free to comment as you may and let the cards fall as they will. And if you’re a young FIRE blogger, do you feel like Good Will Hunting? Haha.
Would young FIRE seekers even know what Good Will Hunting is? It is as old as they are! Try summarising the plot: a young Jason Bourne and Batman earnestly struggle with the meaning of life, as only naïve early twenty-somethings can.
You make a good point though, the importance of enjoying the journey. We may get abducted by aliens or run over a bus tomorrow, which would kind of suck, particularly if we’d existed with a high savings rate but done little living.
For mine, the discipline and good habits that pursuing financial independence make it something everyone should strive for. At their own pace. While they lead fulfilling lives full of contentment and enjoyment because we don’t know how much time we will have.
Suck at those things now, you’ll suck at them after FIRE. If you’re a worrier now, you will be post FI too. Retirement won’t fix you!
What financial independence does offer is serving as an enabler. Removing the financial imperative from decision making. It isn’t the end of the journey, merely an early milestone along the way.
It isn’t a race or a trophy. Nobody else cares if you make it, nor by when.
Hahahaha… what, Good Will Hunting didn’t come out just last year? Are you implying that I’m old? Ha! There’s no summary because I was assuming no young FIRE blogger has ever read my blog nor will, so I’m safe. =) Besides, that quote was so long I wouldn’t have any room left to talk about the movies… hahaha. Plus, your summary was way better than any I could ever come up with.
I think you and I Indeedably, have always been on the exact same page, that there is no reason not to live your best life now. FI is a framework, not an end goal. If you think it will be an answer to your problems, then you have one rude awakening coming. Sure it can remove some financial hurdles in your way, but that’s about it. You still have to develop your own internal structure for happy living and execute.
Thanks for stopping by bud and loving your Sovereign Quest project so far. Keep up the good work.
Wow this is a deep one. A lot to absorb. I love that movie and I’m happy you wrote out the entire quote. Wisdom is the word that comes to mind: the experience of life lived and/or the lack of it. You’re right that jumping off the cliff at an early age will leave you with a larger void to have to navigate in post work life. Scary to think about that. To not know who I am yet, not have been challenged, and having nothing but easy time ahead of me would definitely put me to the test mentally. You would have to create your own challenges to overcome…which sounds easy but is it? It’s a Pandora’s box you open up. Hell, it might be one for me now if I could pull the trigger.
Those kids that hit FIRE super early do have a maturity that I know I sure didn’t have in my youth. I tip my hat to them. Maybe that maturity will serve them well in retirement. Or maybe that early maturity will end up being a flaw or hindrance that only serves as a ceiling to their growth potential. A sheltered kid thrust into a cold hard world…
That’s such a truth that pursuing the goal can become all consuming. Gollum and his precious, if you will. The problem is that it’s probably the right choice, maybe the best thing you could ever do. You can’t go wrong doing the things necessary to achieve FIRE, it’s how much you balance the pursuit with living life that matters.
Great post dude!
I’m addicted to going down rabbit holes… hahaha. I’m glad you liked it Noel.
I think that one of the most important things my long stint at unemployment taught me was, you never know how you are going to react until you are in the situation. It doesn’t matter how much you prepare, envision or think about what you’ll do. Living it is entirely different. I thought I wasn’t attached to my job and had a solid foundation outside of work. But then when I lost it, I learned how dependent I had actually been on it and how difficult forging a new identity was.
And, I’d love to hit FIRE early and am envious of all these youngin’s hitting their stride. However, at the same time it seems the life side hasn’t been thought through as much as the finance side. Not a bad problem to have mind you, but still surprising nonetheless.
Plus, even if you’re retiring at 50, 55, or even 60 you can easily be facing the same issue as well.
I feel this very much. I am not trying to achieve FIRE because I love the pursuit of the next goal to squash, and I know I would be sick if I ever “retired earlier.” I had my first run-in with this when I went to nursing school as a 28 year old. I was being paid a full-salary and only had to attend school. In short – I ran out of things to do pretty quickly, and I became very anxious due to loneliness and a loss of purpose. There were a lot of things surrounding that time in my life that made me struggle with those issues, but one thing I learned for sure was that I enjoyed working. I enjoyed clocking in and putting in my hours – pushing towards the next goal.
I would never have known how not working would have affected me if I hadn’t been given that experience to attend school full-time without any other cares in the world, and I’m glad I learned it early on.
Anyways, thank you for writing this. Well done and very thought-provoking.
Hey there Liz and thanks for chiming in.
If you can learn early on, like you did, what type of person you are and how well you handle downtime, that can be a big help in how you want to design your future life, or goals to work toward. I also think that being lost for certain periods in our lives is natural as well and there’s nothing wrong with it. That’s our natural human state to question, search and process this complex reality we find all of our emotions, thoughts and feelings intertwined with. Plus, there never has to be one “defining purpose.” We have an entire lifetime to continuously change, alter, or reimagine our purpose as it fits the ever evolving chapters of our lives.
I’m glad you learned early on that you like to be busy and wish you all the best in your current and future endeavors.
I appreciate the “thought provoking” compliment. I like asking questions, but never have the answers… hahaha.
This reminds me when I first got into fishing for sharks from the beach. I was so determined to get one. Months of study and discipline and off I went to do it by myself (which was insanely stupid). Anyway, here I was one fine day and, Wham!, my rod goes bendo and I spend the requisite 40 minutes wrasslin’ this beautiful beast to the sand. All the while, a seasoned fisherman is watching from afar, then slowly approaching. When I finally got the shark in, he walked up and said, “Well, what now?” knowing full well I needed help to get the fish quickly released and safely back in the the water while astutely calling out my naïveté.
The point being, I set out all determined and book smart and accomplished my goal, but knew sweet fuck-all what to do when I did. Fortunately, there was someone there to help and point me in the right direction. And was later very thankful for his fortuitous presence.
This, oddly enough, was the impetus behind FatesOnFire. To be an example of the “Okay, so now what?” side of FIRE. What would we risk? What and who could we become? Something other than traveling around and/or just stop writing altogether which seems to be a sadly common theme.
Anyway, I’m grateful that young kids are into the FIRE concepts – that’s cool. I’m glad I achieved my FI after some experience otherwise I’d likely have squandered all on hookers and booze pretending I was Nikki Sixx.
Mr. Fate living large and wrassling sharks! Haha. You’re living up to your name big time!
Your story hits the nail on the head and I know you see a lot of that as well in FIRE. Plus, cool to see your mindset behind the genesis of Fates on Fire. Always glad to have you out there offering advice and leading by example of all the things you can turn the post FIRE journey into.
Also as you mention, many stop writing and go away once they achieve the big dance. Finding a constant voice that discusses the challenges that comes after, is more difficult to find than one would think.
that self appointed “personal finance expert” stuff has always really ground my gears too. so has the concept of doing something with your life just because it’s what you are supposed to want according to the echo chamber. some of the causes are good and noble like saving and investing but sure as hell are no substitute for breaking some eggs to make the omelette that is your one and only life. i was talking to my neighbor’s kid a few months ago. she had just gotten her driver’s license and i was joking around with her about staying out of the way and watch out world!, etc. anyhow, she was saying “nice to talk to you again” and i walked away and continued my dog walk. i thought “what a bright and confident young person” and was reminded that should be the rule and not the exception. i hope some of the younger ones don’t shatter at the first encounter with adversity.
nice rant.
The self appointed “personal finance expert” has always been baffling to me as well. I think if you could just get rid of that term, you’d save a lot of people from being misled.
Like you Freddy, always gotta break some eggs. Hahaha. What doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger seems to play out more often than not.
It’s funny you mention your neighbor’s kid getting her license. I was talking to a few nieces and nephews the other day, 15-18 age and none of them had a desire to get their license. It shocked me. When I was 15, I was chomping at the bit to get my learner’s permit and license. I couldn’t wait for that freedom. But these kids were fine just waiting and getting it whenever. It was a very interesting conversation. Not sure if that was just the kids I was talking to or a trend, but it surprised me.
This monologue has echoed through my mind ever since I first saw this movie in the theaters, only I was 18 back then and only had an inkling of what he was saying. I understood it intellectually, but not through experience, which is basically what he’s saying, right?
My job keeps placing newly minted graduate degree holders in management positions, even though they have minimal job and life experience. As a result, we have 20-something managers issuing orders to people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, and it’s like, “what?!” You haven’t no idea how this place even works because you worked here maybe 3 years before moving into management! You have almost no experience and little knowledge! And these kids are lost!!! So, yeah, experience is an unparalleled and intangible asset to any and all lives. And it only occurs through time.
As much as there are days I wish I was retired, I realize there’s also extensive value to gaining the experiences I gain each and every day while I’m in this working world. I don’t know that there’s a right or wrong, but my pondering made mirror yours, my friend. Nice job breaking down the situation! You did awesome!
I always loved the movie because I could relate to Will too much. I was one of those cocky young kids that thought he knew it all. And I was going through my own rough patch when it came out.
I agree with you that there’s no right or wrong answer. And if anything, I’d rather hit FI young and have the rest of my life to figure it out. Nothing wrong with that. But I’ve seen in a lot of blogger interviews, they hit their mark and are always surprised how different it feels once achieved. The number part is easy, it’s learning to live with ourselves for the rest of our lives that is the challenge.
I think that’s why I gravitate to so many blogs that are good story tellers.
Glad you liked it Katie. I always respect and enjoy hearing your perspective on things.
Love the blog, Q-FI! I admire your ability to tell it like it is! To be fair, you have a background in finance and not to mention an MBA too, so you definitely have an edge over most people that call themselves “financial experts”. But I know exactly what you mean – on the Internet, anyone can claim anything.
As a young blogger, I find myself reading and learning more than I am writing. I know that people like yourself have more life experience and hope to learn as much from you as I can. Good Will Hunting is one of my favorite movies of all-time and I definitely could see myself falling into Damon’s character at times. At the end of the day, the only way to experience life is to live through the struggles. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for reading bud. Yeah, “personal finance expert” has always been a marketing term more than anything meaningful to me. It’s hard to determine the truth without transparency. Nothing wrong claiming whatever you want in this free world, but it never makes me happy seeing newcomers mislead.
Awesome you’re young and writing. And never discount your own perspective. The world I grew up in is entirely different than the one you are, so if you think any of our ramblings are BS – brush them right off. Like you said, you gotta live it on your own and figure out what works for you. Sounds like you’re already asking the right questions and have some fun times ahead of you.
And hey, doing valuations or having an MBA still doesn’t really mean jack shit… hahaha. It’s all individual situations.
Thanks again for sharing, I don’t get too many opinions from the younger crowd. Always welcome to set me straight. =)
Experience is gained as you live but intellect lets you process that experience into useful decisions for the future. However, being smart still doesn’t mean that people don’t make mistakes in life.
I’d say that intuition (the bridge between subconscious and consciousness) and emotional intelligence are what enables the most growth. Intellect in the book smart sense, is overrated… haha. At least in my opinion.
How do you like them apples! Great post, and great movie. Experience really is the best–and in many cases, only–teacher.
I have to say, one of the biggest surprises to me when I started learning about blogging was how many of my personal finance idols were simply hawking affiliate links. I’m guilty of Adsense and some Amazon links in a blatant effort at some type of monetization, so I can’t fault anyone for doing so, but after about my 10th spam call from Personal Capital I thought, hey wait a minute here…
Keep the 90s movie references coming! Dumb and Dumber seems apropos for the current state of the market!
Hahaha… I’m actually surprised you were the first one to do that quote. Well played IF.
All the more power to you to make money. I rant a lot but it’s mostly directed toward those that aren’t transparent. They’re telling you all they care about what is best for you and these are amazing products and then forget to mention they’re profiting from it. That’s the shit that really annoys me.
I just might have to do a Dumb and Dumber reference now… haha. That does sum up momentum investing pretty well.
Thanks for the comment bud!
Nice piece and some great comments with your replies.
My observations are two; first, this issue (as the movie shows) is not just for FIRE folks. I loved my job and work for over 40 years at it, and retirement was still a challenge. Every phase of life for most people is a challenge. As you say change is the only constant and with that comes challenge.
Second, while experience is important I have never liked the concept that it is the best teacher. It is a teacher for sure but I like to think that introspection as a human is also critical. That is the reason we have great novels, that is the reason we are (hopefully) compassionate and self-aware. We don’t have to cradle our dying comrades head in our lap to figure out that war is hell and we better have a good reason to engage. So your conclusion is correct, life is journey and we better pay attention at every stage because we don’t know what the end point is and if we make something an end point we are likely to be disappointed.
Thanks for the nice thread, and the headline was what got me in.
Hey Peter.
To your first point, I think you were in an even more challenging position than most. If you love your job (which tends to be a minority) and then (for whatever your circumstances were) had to give it up or retire. That would be one tough transition at least for me. But regardless, as you acknowledge, even small changes can have a large effect on us.
I guess I interpret your second point a little different. I lump introspection with experience. It’s hard for me to introspect on something I haven’t experienced. Conjecture is more of what I attribute to your point but I see where you are going.
Your last point cracked me up. I’m don’t try to do SEO or clickbait, so looks like I got lucky on a clickbait title I guess. I just title posts whatever comes to mind that day, but glad you found your way here and I appreciate the comment.
“What really gets people in trouble is that basically, they suck at life.”
That is the entire truth of it isn’t it. We all suck at life. We are knowingly and unknowingly hurting each other all the time. But at least I try to be aware, that yeah, I am an a-hole sometimes. I own it and don’t try to hide it behind an illusion of being something I am not.
Thanks for this article though, I think the overarching point is just don’t do things for the sake of doing them. Make sure you are happy, make sure you understand your mind and your mental health. Don’t leave a wake of destruction behind you.
People always think they are better at things than they really are. The main point I’ve learned, it takes a lot of self-awareness to be able to see your shortcomings and acknowledge deficits. At least in my experience. Most peeps like to ignore them and carry on as is.
Also people obsess over the numbers while glossing over the mental health aspect of life. You’d probably be happier if you flipped that equation around. Shape the #’s around happiness rather than mold happiness to the #’s.
But to each their own.
Thanks for the comment AR!
Your first observation is telling. Reminds me of the studies and findings by Kanneman and Tversky about personal perspective and human delusions. One I recall, they asked (men I believe, and it would follow) how they rated themselves as drivers and they predominately rated themselves as well above average. Of course not everyone can be above average, yet people just don’t see themselves as part of the whole. That is what makes mutual fund investing the smart choice over the long haul.
You are certainly provoking and giving a lot of great insights.
Thanks again
This was a great read and I loved the references to “Good Will Hunting”.
Last week I read a blog written by a early FIRE achiever outlining his last 5 years. In a nutshell, it started out great and ended in divorce and sadness. What struck me while reading it was no where in the article could I find that they were volunteering or trying to give back. When I read your article it all made sense to me.
Do I wish I wouldn’t have sqandered thousands of dollars in my 20’s and 30’s?, YES! but those decades made me the person I am today. I am 2 years from FIRE and no expert other than “trying” not to practice my mistakes and learning from others with humility. Loved your perpective which really made this clear to me.
Hi Karen.
First, congrats on being 2 years away! I hope your next chapter turns out to be everything you imagined it could be.
I also read that post. Very long, but very good.
I’ll say two things on the subject to keep this brief.
I think people tend to forget that “FIRE” really is an industry. There are a lot of bloggers selling things – and some of these things you don’t notice as typical products. It’s in the industry’s/movement’s best financial interests to promote the “sunny” side of financial independence and ignore the pitfalls. Yes, some people talk about what’s really going on in their lives, but this tends to be few and far between. Also, keep in mind bloggers are online personalities, you have no way of knowing what is and isn’t true.
Secondly, for whatever reason, people tend to think they can predict the future. Most of our lives never turn out how we thought they would. We all know this. So if that is the case, why would you ever believe that your FIRE journey is going to turn out just as you have planned? Yet, that’s how people tend to think.
I appreciate the good insight and comment and best of luck to you Karen!
You are talking about wisdom.
Hahahaha… yes! That is the word! Good job DP. More succinct and eloquent than I could have ever put it. =)